A Bravery Deficit Is Holding Back Today’s Leaders

Reshma Saujani says she was “always” moved by social justice. As a young girl, she witnessed her parents’ experience as immigrants in the U.S., and after working as a corporate attorney to help pay off her law school debt, she moved into activism. 

Saujani founded Girls Who Code in 2011 — an organization that has trained nearly 600,000 young women in computer science — and now runs Moms First, which campaigns for better paid leave and child care provision. Along the way, she’s written several books, including the bestselling Brave, Not Perfect, and her podcast, My So-Called Midlife, aims to answer her daily question: “Is this it?”

In this interview with Big Think, she explores the “generic” culture she says we’ve gotten into, what workers need to be in the age of AI, and why she’s inspired by Bad Bunny.

Big Think: When you were 33, you left your job as a corporate attorney and decided to run for Congress. You were the first Indian-American woman to do so. What was that experience like, and what did you learn from it?

Saujani: I was blessed to know what I wanted to do with my life at a young age. Because my parents were refugees and they came here as immigrants, I was always intrigued and moved by their story. I was always moved by social justice — I led my first march when I was 13. Then I graduated law school with $300,000 in student loan debt. I naively thought that I could pay off that debt and be free to pursue a career in public service. So, I found myself as a corporate lawyer in New York being like, “Oh my god, is this the rest of my life?” Sometimes I think that you have to hit rock bottom to find the courage and the bravery to really get out of a situation, and that inspired me to quit my job and run for the United States Congress.

I genuinely didn’t understand how impossible the odds are in usurping an incumbent in Congress, and it was devastating [when I didn’t win]. But the big recognition for me in that first loss was that it didn’t break me. The thing about failure is you have to give yourself a finite period to grieve about it and to ask what happened. A lot of people think that failure will break them, and so they don’t take risks.

Big Think: Your book Brave, Not Perfect talks about fearing less, failing more, and living bolder. How do you apply that philosophy to your own life now?

Saujani: I still believe that we’re in the moment of a severe bravery deficit right now. That book, I think, is more relevant today than ever before. We actually need people to feel and to act with courage in their everyday life. There’s so much coming at us that is trying to make us complacent, or to look the other way, or to not sit in the discomfort, and we need to in order to save our own humanity.

You have to practice that bravery muscle every single day. I put myself out there all the time, and if I do get rejected from something, I will print out the rejection letter and put it on my refrigerator, because part of what you have to do is immunize yourself from that feeling of being rejected. Secondly, I always surround myself with people who are going to tell me what I need to do to get better. So, if I go on TV, [I’ll say], “Give me a number. Don’t tell me I did a 10, because I know I didn’t do a 10.” To me, life is about improving, right? It would be boring to be perfect.

Big Think: You wrote last year about imagining a version of manhood “where strength requires empathy, vulnerability and care.” Are you seeing any positive moves to help men and boys show that more vulnerable side?

Saujani: I’m actually seeing it in culture. There is a clip of Bad Bunny when he won the Grammy award where he’s like this [with his head in his hands] — I couldn’t stop watching it. Everybody I know is obsessed with the Olympic figure skater Ilia Malinin. Everyone obsessed with Heated Rivalry [the Canadian TV series that explores a romantic relationship between two male hockey players]. Right now, we keep scrolling about men doing really bad things, and then when you see images of male vulnerability, of male compassion, of male humility, it moves you.

Big Think: You’ve spoken about the ”messy middle,” and how many women find themselves there, rather than identifying with being a ”girlboss” or ”tradwife.” Can you talk more about that? 

Saujani: These archetypes have existed since the beginning of time. And part of, I think, why women are feeling squeezed and exhausted is because it’s not one or the other. We are often both mothers and workers. If you ask most moms in America what they want, they want to have freedom and opportunity and choice. The workday shouldn’t end at 6, and school pickup shouldn’t be at 3:30. We have to actually redesign society.

Big Think: How do you think our working lives will change in the future? 

Saujani: During the pandemic, we had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to fully redesign workplaces. We knew that people were productive and still able to work remotely. I think we’re going to get an opportunity again, with AI, to redesign what work should look like. 

The people who are going to thrive in the workplace are people who have high emotional intelligence. AI can only do what humans can do — it can’t surpass humans yet, right? When you think about art and creativity, we need people to be more creative and less generic. The thing that we have to make sure that we don’t lose is our ability as humans to connect with one another. 

Big Think: Are we allowing culture to have enough of a place in work and in society?

Saujani: No. I feel like we’re living in the most generic times. To me, part of the war on diversity, equity, and inclusion has gotten us here. The less we are open to wanting to have diverse voices and diverse experiences, the more generic we become. I think about this for Girls Who Code — we, for the past 10 years, closed the gender gap in computer science graduates. Now every young woman I talk to can’t get a job.

If you’re a tech company, and you hire just people who look like you — because that’s what you’re comfortable with — then who are you hiring? Now what happens is your workforce looks the same, and if you have the same people with the same life experiences, you just produce the same shit. We’ve lost the ingenuity that comes with diversity.

Big Think: What would your best template for leadership in business be right now?

Saujani: You have to lead with compassion and humanity. I just had a piece that came out about workers and ICE, and why aren’t business leaders speaking out about what we’re seeing in Minnesota? Everybody right now is looking at the world, and their heart is in their gut. Or they’re looking at the state of affairs, and they’re feeling stressed, and they’re feeling anxious, and they’re feeling tired, and they’re feeling confused. So, if you’re not addressing this in your workplace, you’re losing money because people can’t be productive if they’re scared. The loss of faith, the loss of religion, the loss of decency is a lot of why we’re so morally bankrupt.

Big Think: How does spirituality fit into your life?

Saujani: I’m a practicing Hindu. I work with a spiritual teacher. I try to read the [sacred text] Bhagavad Gita at least every night, and I pray every night. I go to meditation several times a week. With what’s going on in the world, especially if you’re a leader, it’s my duty and my obligation to be as centered as I possibly can, because if I’m stressed and I’m anxious, I’m going to take it out on the people who work for me.

Big Think: You talk about “undoing” what we’ve learned in the first half of life. Why is that important and what tips do you have for doing so?

Saujani: I don’t think we’ve been prepared on how to live the second half of our lives. We need to unlearn that youth is the apex — and actually, when you’re 50, I’m the wisest I’ve ever been. I don’t care what people think. I’ve learned so much. I’m so much more disciplined and efficient. If I’m going to do anything big in my life, it’s going to happen now.

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