Full Transcript: Politico's Interview With Mark Carney

This is a full, unedited transcript of POLITICO’s interview with Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney conducted on Oct. 30 in Montreal.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Prime Minister, thanks for speaking with POLITICO today.

Mark Carney: Thanks for having me, Nick.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: You’ve just wrapped up the 21st Canada-EU summit here in Montreal. This is a milestone meeting. You’re here to deepen Transatlantic ties. But there is, we know, some dispute about how to characterize and name the Canada-EU relationship. How would you describe the relationship status with the EU in one word?

Mark Carney: Tight. I don’t think — I think that’s a little too clever of a question, quite frankly for relations between jurisdictions as complex and multifaceted as Canada and European Union. What’s clear, and I think what’s important is to recognize the ambition and the reality, and the reality filling in with the ambition. And as we’ve made clear, President von der Leyen, President Costa, Chancellor Merz, I saw a statement from him the other day. He and I speak regularly. This is going to be the closest association between any country and the European Union in the world and the ambition around the closest association possible without being a full member of the European Union. So that is tight, but it’s broad.

It’s multifaceted. And it’s designed to do several things: affordability for our families; opportunity for our students, our people, our businesses, our researchers; and reinforce our sovereignty, our independence, by bringing together our complimentary strengths in a wide range of areas, energy, critical minerals, AI, space and beyond so that we can withstand shocks, so that others can’t leverage against us because of certain chokepoints or critical supply. And in that regard, to continue to ensure that our citizens have the freedoms that they enjoy, that they can live their lives as they choose.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Prime minister, you said that you speak with the chancellor of Germany, Merz, frequently. Have you expressed some frustration to him about this impasse over associate membership because we do know that he’s blocked it from the joint declaration, and Germany is still against the use of that term.

Mark Carney: I think it’s, well, I’ll make a couple observations. One is that in terms of frustration, we have a very constructive relationship, so we focus on what we’re working on together, a variety of global issues. He’s in Asia at the moment. Maybe he’s just made it back home. So we’ve been talking about a variety of other elements. No. 2, in terms of, again, the titles, I can slightly understand why you ask it, but I’m not sure the best use of our time is to ask multiple questions about one term when what this is about is a deep cooperation across technology, across trade, across culture, across research, across education working together on common problems with very specific agreements that are going to move to address that.

Zoya Sheftalovich: But given that, do you understand Germany’s objection then?

Mark Carney: The issue is a very internal European issue which relates to terminology around countries that are in Europe and could ultimately become a member of the European Union and nomenclature that’s applied to those countries. It’s not a Canadian issue. It’s an internal, broader European issue, and given where you are and POLITICO’s considerable resources, I’m sure you can research and discover the details around.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Your government also in Montreal announced a new national security strategy. It identified Frontier AI as a real threat facing Canadians. Curious how concerned you are about the enormous political, enormous economic power wielded by a handful of global tech executives.

Mark Carney: I think the, anytime — so thank you for that — any time that there is a single point of risk or a couple of points of risk or points of failure, you should be concerned in terms of, and, that those relate directly to the core of your economy. So let me draw that out and be more specific. So what’s been happening over the course of the last several months is Frontier AI models have been better able to identify holes in cyber defenses which run the risk of financial institutions seizing up power systems or other core systems in our economies stopping functioning because they need cyber defenses all the time. It is not a good idea to have only one solution to that problem. It is a good idea to have multiple solutions to those problems and to have some of those solutions within your control either through partnership, direct ownership, direct development.

And what our national security strategy does is it identifies not countries, per se, but it identifies the type of areas where there is that deep strategic risk; critical minerals is another, energy’s obvious, food security is a third, various aspects of AI, space technology. Increasingly what will happen is a variety of systems in our economies will run, will be connected to space, to satellites in some form. Well, if you’re connected to a satellite system that a billionaire, almost trillionaire, decides to turn off at one moment or not, that’s not a good idea either; so having the redundancy. So what’s one of the things that we and Europe are doing, which is cooperating, pooling our space assets, some of our space assets. Europe, as you know, has IRIS². We have some leadership in lower orbit satellite. Some other technologies can come together which creates some parallel systems, redundancy, independence, sovereignty, and then there is not that risk that you just described.

Zoya Sheftalovich: But you alluded to what Elon Musk did with Starlink and Starshield. That was a huge problem for Ukraine on the battlefield.

Mark Carney: Yeah.

Zoya Sheftalovich: It took days to resolve. It still has exposed the extent to which Ukraine is vulnerable. And there’s nothing as far as I can tell that Canada, that Europe can do to replace that capability now.

Mark Carney: Well, I mean, instantaneously you can’t instant, so ...

Zoya Sheftalovich: How long will it take?

Mark Carney: It takes, look, what our Leo constellation will be operable in 2028. Europe’s a few years later, I’ll say roughly. We can help bridge to Europe’s constellation and/or we can help scale and pool those two constellations. Those are the types of things you can do if you’re deliberate about them and focus on them and accelerate. And that’s exactly what we’re doing. So there are risks. Now we are not, we have not hooked our dependencies to that system, our defenses to that system nor would we given the track record.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Do you think the CEOs are doing enough when you consider the risk from AI? I mean, you’ve identified it as a big threat to humanity.

Mark Carney: Yeah.

Zoya Sheftalovich: I mean, the idea of slowing down gets mentioned and then shut down. Are the tech company CEOs who you speak to, do you feel like they’re taking the risk seriously and preventing it?

Mark Carney: You know I don’t know if this is a contrarian view, but the ones I speak to, Demis Hassabis would be an example, a Nobel laureate at Google DeepMind, Dario Amodei, others, they do take it seriously. And in many respects, they’ve been at the forefront and very well-informed and from an early stage, in other words going back several years warning about the risks on cyber, on recursive AI, other aspects, biohazards and things. So they have been. It is exceptionally difficult, if not impossible. I should never say something’s impossible, but it’s exceptionally difficult for industries to regulate themselves, to truly regulate themselves. On a much lower scale, I’m very familiar with what happens in finance and banks know that they shouldn’t stretch too far, but to quote Chuck Prince, when the music’s playing, it’s hard to stop dancing unless somebody is regulating the music, overseeing the music, providing guardrails in and around. That’s why so much was done in the financial sector. It should’ve been done before the financial crisis. We did a lot after the financial crisis.

It’s why Canada is advocating a technology stability board, bringing together the safety institutes, some of which are resident here in Montreal. The Mila, we made an announcement at Mila the other day where a lot of that expertise is. A lot of that expertise is in Europe. Some of it’s in the U.K. Of course some is in the U.S. But pooling that, providing, getting common approaches, making sure that, you know, we go back and apply it, this is something we should be doing. To be absolutely clear, we should be doing it at the G7. We should be doing it at the G20. It’s not happening. It’s not moving fast enough. So what do you do in that circumstance? If you’re European Union, if you’re Canada, some other likeminded countries, is you come together and you do that together to the best extent you can. It’s not as good as it happening globally, but it’s far better than nobody doing it. And it does potentially create the momentum, or at least the nucleus for broader solutions. And that is one of the examples of what we will be doing with the alliance for the future.

Zoya Sheftalovich: I’m glad you put your central banker hat on because I want to ask you a question on that because obviously so much of the global economy now is being built on the potential of AI to boost productivity. What happens if it fails?

Mark Carney: Well, if you’re asking me from a central banker perspective back to the old days, I mean, this is one of the issues is that if the productivity benefit — if and when the productivity benefits come from AI that are widely spread — they have to be widely spread to affect the economy and to bring wages up and growth up for everyone, then economies can grow faster without inflationary pressures. What you can’t do as a central banker is take that for granted and start to adjust monetary policy, lower interest rates, or have interest rates lower than they otherwise would be because you think that’s going to happen. You have to see it happen because the inflationary process works in a very short period of time. And so one of the issues for central banks is teasing out when that’s going to happen. It’s, personally, I think it’s less tricky for them because they need to see it in the actual performance and then respond at that time.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: On a personal level, how do you use AI day to day?

Mark Carney: How do I use AI? I use it, well, I use it not as much as I would like because much of what I receive is secret or top — it’s government information and so I have to be, you know, I have to be very careful about what’s applied to that. And our systems, speaking just openly, are not well set up, in terms of using data information across various systems. It’s just, they’re a series of silos the way they’re designed. So what we’re doing as a government is we are embedding AI. We brought Patrick Pichette in, former CFO of Google, very experienced in the area across the board and were transforming how government works. And that’s going to be part of what I’m able to do. I can see what I would like to do with a series of agents in terms of managing my information flow and pulling things out. But we need to restructure rapidly internally, how we work as a government. So that’s the long, long-ish short answer to how I use AI. Look, I mean, recreationally, I’ll use some GPTs to, you know, inquire about certain issues or others, but it’s not as much as I would like to be the case.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: I want to take you back to national security.

Mark Carney: Yeah.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: I have a question on Golden Dome, the U.S., potential U.S. missile shield.

Mark Carney: Yeah.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: I’m going to quote you here.

Mark Carney: We can see the geodesic dome from here, Prime Minister Fuller’s dome right there, 1967.

Zoya Sheftalovich: I’m going to have to go check it out after.

Mark Carney: You can check it out. You just look over your shoulder. You know, it doesn’t look much different when you get that close. Sorry.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: In a recent ...

Mark Carney: You can edit all that out, Nick.

Zoya Sheftalovich: No, we should keep it because Brussels has the Atomium so it’s like a dual bubble situation.

Mark Carney: Okay. All right. All right. I’ll go, I’ll go.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Next time you’re ...

Mark Carney: ... next time I’m in Brussels.

Zoya Sheftalovich: When you’re in Brussels, I’ll take you to the Atomium.

Mark Carney: OK, yeah. OK.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: In a recent interview with ...

Mark Carney: Sorry, we’ve run out of time.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: ... with the New York Times I’m going to quote, you said “hypersonic missile defense coordination with the United States will be ...” and then you were interrupted. You didn’t get to finish the sentence. So I’m ...

Mark Carney: I can’t remember what I was going to say.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: What would you say now?

Mark Carney: What’s the question?

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Just reflecting on Golden Dome and, Canada’s, I guess, potential participation.

Mark Carney: Well, there are a series of areas where you know, continued Canadian-U.S. cooperation is the most effective way to defend Canada, my interest, defend the United States as well. And so what’s changed is, and changing rapidly, is the risk of hypersonic missiles, circumpolar, if I can put it that way, or over polar missiles coming towards the United States or hitting Canada, and so a coordinated approach there is of interest. We are investing in some of the components of that defense, over-the-horizon radar for example, the Australian purchase that we’ve started to put in place, which literally does, looks over the horizon, in order to give that extra period of time to provide that defense. So we’re making some of those investments. There’s clear line of sight, you know, with us and the United States in terms of what we’re doing and how that potentially could fit into a broader solution.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: But do you think at this point that Golden Dome is tangible, is something that could actually happen, that’s worth talking about participating?

Mark Carney: Could being the operative word there.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: We’ll move to Trump and the trade war.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Occasionally you’re asked about this.

Mark Carney: Yeah.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Midterm elections are next week. Is it acceptable to you to never get the chance, never seal a new trade deal with Donald Trump while he’s in office?

Mark Carney: I would flip the question around. We will conclude a deal that’s in Canada’s interest when one is available. And we can do it this afternoon. We know the broad outlines of that, that’s a mutually advantageous trade deal with the U.S. and Canada. By the way, the most mutually advantageous trade with the U.S. and Canada is our existing trade deal which they call USMCA. But in an environment of the new trade policy of the United States, there are still things where given the starting point they are very much win-win, for the two countries. And we can conclude that rapidly, but we’re not going to conclude something for the sake of concluding it. We’re not going to lock in something that’s not in Canada’s interests. We have agency. We have options. We are building this economy domestically at home. We are deepening partnerships with the European Union, represented by your colleague. We have free trade access to one and a half billion consumers around the world, and we’re likely to double that in the next six months. So yes, there’s a deal to have with the US. We can do that quickly. But if there’s not something that’s in Canada’s interest, we’re not going to do it just for the sake of it.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: So another way of asking would be you’re willing to wait for the next U.S. president if that’s what it takes?

Mark Carney: Well, if that’s what it takes, yeah. And American families, American businesses will also lose out because of that. They’re not winners in this circumstance. But what is happening is that every month that goes by, Canada grows stronger. Our options increase. Ultimately we’ll be a better partner for the United States. That’s not why we’re doing this. We’re doing this to create more opportunity for Canadians.

Zoya Sheftalovich: I wanted to ask you about some of the comments that have come from the U.S. Ambassador Pete Hoekstra and others who’ve been accusing Canada of election meddling ahead of the midterms. I mean, are you tired, to borrow an expression, of the U.S. poking the bear?

Mark Carney: Well, not a bear. Am I the bear in this metaphor?

Zoya Sheftalovich: I think Canada’s the bear.

Mark Carney: Okay. Canada’s the bear. I think Canadians are tired of it. I think that’s very clear.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Have you raised it with Trump?

Mark Carney: Raised ...

Zoya Sheftalovich: The fact that, you know, that these accusations keep flying.

Mark Carney: I think that might encourage more. Look, we call out the issue. I call out specific issues with the United States. There are a wide range of them, unfortunately. What I focus on with my interactions with President Trump are, yes, trade and trying to push and encourage towards something that’s in their interests but very much, in our interests, mutually advantageous deal. There are a series of global challenges. We all know them; Ukraine, Iran, Gaza, Sudan, a series of areas where the United States has tremendous influence and can be part of the solution where Canada can do some things to help and so to try to encourage outcomes that are going to make things better.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Did you change any of the way in which you spoke about the EU-Canada summit, anything that you did here this week, with a view to what Donald Trump might say about it?

Mark Carney: Absolutely not. That way lies madness. I’ll be absolutely clear about that. We do, I speak for Canada. I speak in Canada’s interests. I can’t remember if I’m trying to manage my words so that it doesn’t offend this country there or that country there. It’s far better just to be absolutely clear what we’re doing. This is a very positive association, the bilateral relationship between Canada and Europe the tightest one — to go back to where we started, the tightest one that exists — and a very positive alliance. And it’s much better, and it’s very much the mood of the country, of Canadians. Canadians want to build. Canadians want to move forward. Canadians want to do things. They want to solve problems. They don’t want to react to things. They don’t want to break things down. They don’t want — we have challenges, there’s no question. But people are in a good place. They want to come together. They want to build. And so we’re not adjusting what the U.S. might think, what China might think, what certainly, what Russia might think.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Might you adjust for what happens in Europe because the EU is moving towards the far right? The French election is coming up. Marine Le Pen is polling first. The AFD has won two consecutive regional elections. So is there a worry that you have that this union that’s built on tight values, on aligning on all of these things, might actually look very different once those elections happen?

Mark Carney: Well, look, part of having values and valuing democracy and freedom and rule of law is that you have elections and the people decide which direction they want to go. So that’s part and parcel of the European Union, certainly Canada. What we have I’ve yet to find a country that in a world that’s more dangerous and divided does, that doesn’t want to be more sovereign, more independent, able, better able to withstand shocks. You quickly learn if you haven’t figured it out yet if you’re in one of these roles that to be sovereign is not to be alone, that you need like-minded partners. Nobody is self-sufficient.

The United States is not self-sufficient. The United States discovered that when China made restrictions on critical minerals. There’s lots of other areas where the United States relies on other countries for certain critical aspects. And so governments coming in within Europe, there are issues in Europe but there are advantages within Europe. And Europe itself gives more sovereignty to countries that are in Europe. Canada gives more sovereignty to Europe. Europe gives more sovereignty to Canada.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Would you work with President Le Pen across the ...

Mark Carney: Well, my responsibility is to work with, whether it’s provincial premiers or leaders of other countries, in the best interest of Canada. Now working with and having agreement on are two different things. But in my experience, it’s best to look to work together. Could the range of cooperation in Europe, for Europe and the way its priorities change with different democratic outcomes? Absolutely. But that’s the way it should be. Is there more than enough in terms of deepening our cooperation in the areas that we’ve set out? Absolutely, as well. And both are compatible.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Next month you’ll be the only NATO leader um, aside from Donald Trump to attend the APEC summit in China. You’ve said that if you ...

Mark Carney: Hadn’t thought about that but that’s true, yes.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: And you said that if you see Vladimir Putin, you will tell him to get out of Ukraine, similar to one of your predecessors, Stephen Harper. But do you plan to seek a meeting with Putin while there?

Mark Carney: No, I don’t. But I mean, that’s my message to him.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Sure.

Mark Carney: My message to him would be we’re going to tighten sanctions. Get out of Ukraine. Stop your war crimes.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: We had some breaking news today just shortly before we sat down here. Russian hockey teams likely let back into international tournaments. Canada’s hosting the under-20 championship we call in Canada, of course, the World Juniors in Alberta. What do you make of the idea that Russian teams will be competing once again?

Mark Carney: Wasn’t aware of it. It’s unwelcome.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Yeah. Do you consider ...

Mark Carney: I’ll think about it. I’ll think about it. Yeah.

Zoya Sheftalovich: I wanted to ask you about the four shirts from Brooks Brothers that Donald Trump gifted you. [Laughter]

Mark Carney: Yes.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Did they fit?

Mark Carney: I haven’t tried them on yet. I haven’t tried them on. If we have a trade deal, why I’ll, I’ll put them on. But I thank the president for sending the shirts. That’s my shirt size.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Why did he send those shirts? Does it say anything more broadly about cross-border relations or was it just your personal relationship?

Mark Carney: I don’t want to read too much into it.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Did you send him something back?

Mark Carney: I didn’t, actually. I said thank you. I said thank you. But yeah, no, I haven’t had occasion to put on the shirts because we don’t have a mutually advantageous trade deal. I look forward to the day that I am wearing the Brooks Brothers shirt, as you say. I’m not going to wear all four at once. But they’re sitting in my closet.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: What’s the last gift you gave the president?

Mark Carney: Can’t remember. Come on, Nick. Put me on the spot.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Well, there was an Olympic hockey bet I heard, some sort of gentleman’s wage?

Mark Carney: No, there wasn’t. No, there wasn’t a bet. We didn’t bet on the hockey. We talked about it and we talked about the World Series as it was going through. I am trying to remember. Oh, I know what I gave him which was for the 250th anniversary of the United States we did a series of things. As Canada, we lit up — this was to the American people, the president included — we lit up various bridges, cross-border bridges with the American flag. Nice touch I thought. We sent 250 maple trees to be planted across border states. And then we had some commemorative coins that were made which had on them two-sided. One was the American eagle because as you know and you know the American, there’s lots of American eagles in Canada, bald eagles in Canada as well as, of course, as being the symbol of the United States. And then on the other side his favorite monarch who happens to be king of Canada as well as the United States, Prince, King Charles, I should say.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: We have to ask you about Nathan Fielder. Vancouver’s own ...

Mark Carney: Who?

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Nathan Fielder.

Mark Carney: Yes.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: His documentary on Elizabeth Holmes, “You Can See Everything.” Canada’s latest ...

Mark Carney: I can see everything but I haven’t seen the documentary.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: So would you let him, knowing maybe a little bit about his style, make a documentary about you?

Mark Carney: I don’t — I mean, I know he — I have no idea. How’s that? How’s that?

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Well, let’s shift then to a cultural icon in Canada you certainly love which is “Heated Rivalry.” Season two is coming.

Mark Carney: I certainly, OK, Yeah.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Well, you’ve posed for photos quite warmly with one of the stars.

Mark Carney: It just happened.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Do we get a Carney cameo?

Mark Carney: It just happened.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Do we get a Carney cameo in season two?

Mark Carney: I don’t — boy, that would — I think the business model of “Heated Rivalry,” I mean apart from entertainment, is have as many people watch it as possible, and I think having a Carney cameo might drive down the ratings. So I wouldn’t hold my breath, but of course, Ottawa does play an important role in season two, doesn’t it?

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: Sure does.

Mark Carney: Yeah. I look forward to it.

Zoya Sheftalovich: I did want to ask about something you said in your press conference earlier. You were asked about the support for Ukraine. You mentioned ...

Mark Carney: How long is this interview? Is it like a month?

Zoya Sheftalovich: We get a year.

Mark Carney: Okay.

Zoya Sheftalovich: That’s all we’ve been told.

Mark Carney: All right. Yeah. All right.

Zoya Sheftalovich: You said you ...

Mark Carney: My press conference yesterday you mean?

Zoya Sheftalovich: Today.

Mark Carney: The one — no, no, because it was yesterday. We’ve been here for 24 hours.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Oh, God, yes, of course.

Mark Carney: Because you got the Heated Rivalry question and ...

Zoya Sheftalovich: You look great for someone who hasn’t changed.

Mark Carney: Okay.

Zoya Sheftalovich: I wanted to ask about the 500 million contribution to the Ukraine loan that you mentioned.

Mark Carney: Yeah.

Zoya Sheftalovich: You said that was the start. What is the sort of headroom you’re talking about there?

Mark Carney: Well, I think that’s the essence. I think we recognize that’s the agreement and that’s within the — maybe I didn’t choose the words exactly clearly enough. You have the 90 billion, as you know, Euros of that loan. We’re taking 500 million Euros of that. The question, unfortunately, back to the Putin point is how long this continues to go on, the suffering continues to go on and the additional needs that may be there for Ukraine. Sorry, I was imprecise. I was more alluding to we’re going to stand by Ukraine and be there both for reconstruction and ongoing support for their defensive purposes.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Do you think there is a wavering in the global consensus around how to treat Putin because it feels like lately a lot of leaders are picking up the phone and talking to him. Just recently we heard about the phone call between Stubb and Støre. Do you think that’s the right approach?

Mark Carney: I think it depends on the message and whether previous messengers were clear enough about what the message and the resolve, for example, for those members of the Coalition of the Willing and the resolve of European member states, I mean, clearly and countries like Canada. Sometimes it’s better to have those direct leader-to-leader conversations. So in that regard, it’s fine. And may be constructive. I don’t think that well, there has been some variance in terms of U.S. actions with respect to restrictions on you know, sanctions on Russia, provision of defensive capabilities to Ukraine. That’s been unhelpful. I don’t think there’s been a wavering of resolve of other members. There has not been a wavering of resolve. If anything, there’s been a hardening of resolve of members of the Coalition of the Willing and Canada included. The atrocities continue, ballistic missiles being fired into the equivalent of Old Montreal, in Kyiv. Russia lost another 35,000-plus soldiers in the last month. It’s a pointless slaughter that’s going on. So the resolve continues.

Nick Taylor-Vaisey: All right.

Zoya Sheftalovich: Thank you very much for the full day you gave us.

Mark Carney: You’re welcome. Take care.