Kathy Hochul On Trump, Mamdani And The Future Of New York

NEW YORK — It wasn't wings or beef on weck, but Buffalo's Kathy Hochul these days calls New York City home more often than not. And if you're looking for a morning nosh in Manhattan, well, you can't top Barney Greengrass.

The enduring Upper West Side institution — now in its third generation of ownership — puts out some of the best latkes in the city. And they're only the appetizer before the scrambled eggs, lox and onions mash-up that's nothing short of blissful.

So it was at the venerable "Sturgeon King," a nickname bestowed by a Tammany Hall lieutenant, that I met the governor for my latest edition of “On The Road.”

After years of slipping around Manhattan unrecognized in a baseball cap and shades, Hochul can't go incognito as easily now. She's been governor for over five years. And she reveals herself when she rolls in with an entourage and immediately makes a beeline for any baby she sees, every bit the grandmother and politician.

The first Western New York governor since Grover Cleveland, Hochul is a throwback, an up-from-the-clubhouse Irish pol. Some of her first political memories are of volunteering at the local Democratic headquarters with another, slightly older Irish kid, Tim Russert, on behalf of perhaps New York's greatest Irishman: Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Russert, Hochul told me, first taught her how to craft a press release.

Now it's Hochul making the news, and she did just that in our conversation — on Israel's impending election, her advice to New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani regarding Police Commissioner Jessica Tisch and the governor's own ambitions.

I won't bury the lede on that last bit: Hochul knows her history and, should she win next week, she told me she intends to seek a full third term as governor in 2030. If she prevails, she'll match the likes of Rockefeller, Dewey and Cuomo. Mario, that is.

Hochul's predecessor turned rival Andrew Cuomo resigned before completing his third term.

She knows that quite well, too.

And what would life for her have been like if Andrew Cuomo, not Mamdani, had won the mayor's race last year? Well, trust me, you can't miss her response to that. But you've got to watch the show for it.

Watch the full video on YouTube or listen to it as a podcast for the whole story.

The following conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

You come out of the traditional New York politics famously called the three I's. I think back in that day you balanced the ticket in New York by getting Ireland, Israel and Italy on the same ticket. This is obviously a very different era of New York politics. It's a very different era of Democratic politics, too, governor. And you're living that. You've got a democratic socialist as mayor of this city. But you've navigated it fairly well so far. What’s the best practice that you can suggest to other Democrats who are navigating this moment politically? How have you forged a relationship with somebody from a very different generation, background, whose politics are very different from yours? 

You just make it work. I don't have an option in life. I have to work with the president. I work with every one of my mayors. I mean, my job is to make sure that this state is phenomenally successful, including all my cities, of which New York is a significant one, no doubt about it. So I could go back to the old New York model of being at war with the mayor. Who's the tough guy, who gets the press conference first, who makes the announcement before anybody? Withhold money because you can. And I saw that model, and it's very destabilizing. People want to know that their leaders can actually put aside differences and work together.

And I have a lot of commonality with the mayor when it comes to universal child care. This is a life-changing experience for families when they can afford child care. Working on building more housing, protecting our subways and our streets from crime. We're aligned on so many issues, and I need New York to be successful — I need the mayor to be successful. It's not hard for me because I drop the ego at the door. So I've developed a very positive relationship with him.

Were you relieved when Zohran Mamdani beat Andrew Cuomo here? 

I knew he was going to win. I thought he brought a new energy to the party. Again, differences on approaches to the Jewish community, Israel and all that — that's another topic. But I think people enjoyed seeing someone that had a very fresh look at the city and saw the possibilities. And I'm an optimist.

But your life has been easier having him versus having Andrew, right? It would have been a very different scenario here if you were having Andrew. It would've been that old model that you just mentioned of the historic clash between the governor and the mayor, Albany versus the city.  

Yeah, but I would have been the one on top because I'm the governor.

Well, and people should realize this — I'm surprised that we've gotten this far, you haven't mentioned it yet — the governor of New York has more power than the mayor of New York, right? The city of New York is basically, I wouldn't call it a vassal. Maybe you would. But how would you describe it? 

Well, it's true. New York City has outsized influence for a city, but they can't increase or reduce the speed limit by a mile an hour unless I say yes. They cannot do basic traffic things. I just saw on the news this morning that the city installed 600 red light cameras with Albany's permission. This is the level of detail we get down to. I'd rather not have to prove this, but I think it goes back to when the city was on the verge of bankruptcy in the ’70s. So basically it became a ward of the state. I'd rather give a lot of this back. I'd rather worry about bigger issues than whether or not the speed limit should be reduced in the city of New York. But it is what it is, and I think there's a lot of governors who want to have that power. Whereas I come out of local government, and I'm happy to just say, “You take care of that. You need my help, I'm there.”

You've been working with the mayor for about a year now. Tell me how you found him. Is he more pragmatic than you thought, or is he fairly ideological?

I'd say very pragmatic when it comes to getting things done. He understands the relationship with the governor is important. His supporters probably aren't thrilled when they see us standing together, too, right? That's fine.

Because they view you as too moderate. Do you ever joke about that with them, by the way? Like, sort of the odd couple, like, your young supporters see me as –

I could bring him the grandma vote, yeah. No, we both know what we have to do to develop a relationship, but it's not that hard.

You told him that? 

We have a lot of conversations. When you think about it, you're in this rather rarefied space, right? You're in the fishbowl; everything you do is criticized, it's looked at, it's analyzed. And the two of us are in that space in New York state. I would say that develops some empathy for what each other goes through. And I think that's a very natural reaction from people who are actually pretty human. And you don't always see that in politicians. So I think it's been a relationship that I've enjoyed. And I look forward to doing many more things with him for years to come, just supporting the city.

And I think pragmatic is the word. People are telling me that it's not what they expect in any respect. There are people saying everybody's selling their penthouse; they're going to be out of town the day after the election. It's like, no, we're actually doing pretty good right now. Everybody wants to be in New York City. And there's been a sea change in attitudes with respect to the business climate. The investments are here. People want to be here.

How relieved were you when he said publicly that he was going to retain Jessica Tisch as police commissioner? 

Well, that was important to me before I supported him. He knew that.

That was something that you talked about privately with him. 

Before I endorsed –

Endorsed him, yeah. 

I thought it was very important because she's a credible voice, she is a Jewish woman, has a successful family. It's important that she stays. She knows her role is important. He knows her role is important, and before I would support, it was important to have a commitment or an understanding that this is very important to a lot of people.

But now there's questions about how long that commitment lasts, though. Like, months, years, what do you think? 

As long as the commissioner wants. And she's a dedicated public servant. She's doing a phenomenal job. She knows this is, second to the mayor, this is the most important job in the city of New York.

He should keep her for as long as she wants to stay. 

Yeah, I think they're both working to make the relationship work against all odds. Talk about my relationship — that's a complicated one, too. And she's a real pro, and he respects her. I see it, I do a lot of events with both of them all the time.

Would she ever run for office, do you think, Tisch? 

I don't know, and she had an opportunity last spring if she wanted to, as well.

You mentioned the fact that she is Jewish. There's two elections that a lot of folks in this city are watching. One's taking place halfway across the world. The other's here at home shortly after. How much easier would your job get if [Benjamin] Netanyahu loses? 

A lot easier. And here's the challenge: I represent the largest Jewish population in the world outside of Israel. And I know they're suffering. A lot of people are anxious about antisemitism, which is sky-high right now. And I take that personally, because I represent everyone. I went to Israel right after Oct. 7. I saw a lot of pain there. But I actually cautioned the government there, in private conversations, not to overreach. The world is with you when it comes to the brutal assault by a terrorist organization known as Hamas on innocent Israeli people. An overreach could change that dynamic, and that's what's happened. We have to have leadership there that understands the security of Israel is paramount — critically important to me, but also the world — but to have a safe Palestinian state as well, which has been talked about my entire life. I still believe that this can happen. I believe we have to get people of goodwill who can make this happen, and as long as Netanyahu is sitting there, that is not in his interest to do that. It's just not, and it won't happen.

Do you think a Jewish person could win the nomination for your party in 2028? 

I do, I do.

Do you think they could if Netanyahu is in office? 

I think that's gonna be still a lightning rod, right? Who knows what he's going to do next for self-preservation. We see the president in our own country doing rather extreme things for self-preservation of his party and his legacy right now. And there's parallels. Those of us who are just trying to just do the right thing and let the Jewish people know I'm protecting them in the city, that I have to worry about security grants to protect synagogues and yeshivas from violence. There was another attack recently.

It's so depressing. 

It's horrible, and people should not walk around the city in fear, and I'm going to do everything in my power to protect them against antisemitism and these acts of hate and violence

So what's the current status of your relationship with President [Donald] Trump? 

We had a respectful call right after we had the shooting with the 5-year-old in the car in the Bronx.

What'd you tell him? 

I said, [Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents] are out of control.

What'd he say? 

He said he was gonna look into it. I said, “I want you to stand down ICE operations for the time being. We have to get to the bottom of this. I wanna see the body cam footage.” I've still yet to see that. I talked to him, I talked to Secretary [Markwayne] Mullin the same night and the next day. They both told me they're only going after the worst of the worst. I said, “You promised that you're only going after the baddest of the bad, the worst of the worst, and people believe you. And my state police, our law enforcement, will help you get rid of the worst criminals. We don't want them here, either.” In this case, the person had a record. But the vast majority of cases — like the person working up at a state college in Syracuse was just taken away. We have people taken from pizzerias. Even a conservative talk show host from upstate New York reached out to me when he said that the man who ran the Chinese restaurant in his town for 30 years, was part of his family basically, he was gone. I said, “I'm gonna work on this.” So I’ve spent so much of my time trying to track down where people are, how I can get them back. So I told the president, I said, “This has to stop. You have to stop.” I said, “this is hurting your party politically, in case you haven't noticed, either.”

He is a son of Queens, obviously. Mamdani’s from Queens. What do you make of that relationship between him and Mamdani? And has it actually been productive, do you think? 

I think sometimes you have to judge something by what doesn't happen.

The plane that lands safely. Yeah. 

Yeah, then remember the media never caused the planes that land safely, and most of my planes land safely.

But has the Mamdani/Trump romance produced anything? 

It's what didn't happen.

It's averted bad stuff. 

Oh, please give credit for that. The mayor and I talk about this relationship and visits and everything. And how important it is just to take [Trump’s] sights off of New York City in a hostile way and find common ground, talk about major investments and properties here and friends you have and businesses, and you don't want to hurt New York. We saw what was happening in Chicago, we saw what happened in L.A. That easily could have been us. So I talked to the president about it. He actually said on national news, “I wouldn't do that unless Kathy Hochul asked for the help.” I said, “That's not happening. I've got tens of thousands of NYPD and my National Guard and my state police. We've got this.”

So it could be a lot worse, you're saying? 

Oh, yes. I think people predicted it to be worse.

Why does Trump like [Mamdani], though? Young, good-looking guy, right? 

Yeah, I said, “Go charm the heck out of him. You guys are charming guys. Go charm each other. Just keep the sights off of New York.” It is a charm offensive, both sides. They get a detente. I'll go in and push for things that I need to and have the conversations. So it works. I think the president still really likes New York City. And that's good for us. You know, he still cares about this city.

That's your secret weapon, actually, his personal affection for the city. So let me ask you about Senator Chuck Schumer and his future. Do you think it’d be in the best interest of the state for him to run for reelection given his seniority? 

Listen, he has done an enormous amount of good for the state in terms of bringing major projects here, and we've worked on infrastructure projects like the Gateway Tunnel. I understand why people are frustrated. I truly do. They have expectations of their leaders of what they want to see, I understand that, but what he does with his future is absolutely up to him. He's not consulting me on this because he is focused on taking back the Senate at this very moment.

What's best for New York, do you think? 

Whatever he wants to do. But he has delivered. Gateway Tunnel helped me with Micron. There's been big deliverables.

You’re for him if he runs, I assume?

We'll see what he does. Yeah, absolutely

Do you think a democratic socialist can win statewide? Obviously it's one thing to win in the city, but can you win a general election statewide? 

Yeah, I don't know. I think the state is far more purple than people realize. It really is. When you just look at Democratic, Republican enrollment, it looks like there's more Democrats. But 25% of the voters are independents who tend to vote Republican. So if you put that independence, at least a certain percentage of it, in the Republican column, it is not what people think. When people say, “Oh, people should be winning 25 points in a true blue state in a wave here,” you don't know New York then. We have major areas of the state, including where I come from, that are MAGA, that support Donald Trump before Donald Trump.

Well, your friend Elise Stefanik changed her tune on Trump in part because her district moved and became Trumpy, and she realized that she had to move with him. 

Wanna hear my prediction? I said this a year and a half ago, and people thought I was crazy. But when I did a roundtable with farmers and local businesses right after the Trump tariffs started and people were starting to feel that his war with Canada was not going well for New York state because they're our best allies, I did a roundtable up in the North Country. And when I heard the frustration from Republican farmers, who were paying so much more for energy with tariffs. And the small businesses that were hurting, and the people saying that these small tourist communities were getting killed because 3 million fewer Canadians came over. I said, “This guy, Blake Gendebien, he can win this seat.” And people said, “No, no. Not in that district.” I said the issues are on our side. So I've been lifting him up, trying to help him.

This is the Democrat running for the Stefanik seat in the North Country. 

A seat that has been Republican.

The Glens Falls.

All the way to the Canadian border. But there's a lot of pain points because of the Trump administration, because of what they're doing to the economy, to inflation, the cost of everything. And again, the Canadian relationship is probably more important in New York than anywhere else.

So speaking of the House, have you gotten to know [Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez], and what do you make of her? 

I think she really cares about this community, and I was just with her up in the Hudson Valley.

With Pat Ryan. 

With Pat Ryan.

Maybe your successor, Pat Ryan. He wants to run for governor, doesn't he? 

Well, we have no term limits, so I'm not going anywhere anytime soon.

You're gonna be the Tommy Thompson of the Empire State, four-timer, huh? 

Everybody's got to wait their turn. I like Pat enormously.

Sorry, Pat. You gotta wait, man. 

He's a young guy.

Hope you enjoy Congress and that trip back and forth to Washington. You've got about 10 years left. So what's her future, you think, AOC? I mean, she could obviously run for the Senate, run for president. 

She can do whatever she likes.

Where would she be most effective? 

She'll go where she wants to be.

But you know politics, you worked as a staffer. You've now served in local politics, state politics. Tell me where you think she could be the most effective, knowing her talents and her weaknesses. 

You're not going to get an answer out of me on this. You're very clever, you're good.

You do know your stuff. 

I do know my stuff. And I've been in this business; I've served in every level of government.

I know, that's why I'm asking you. 

But I do believe that she brings a voice to people who feel that no one has been listening to them. And when I was with her in the Hudson Valley, on a farm, stomping around with our boots with the farmer, talking about what data centers would do to that area, I saw the connection that she had with people. I asked her if she would travel the state, bring out young people, bring out the crowds. And she's doing just that here and across the country. That is a talent. Just like the mayor, these are talents that, as the leader of the Democratic Party in New York, I want to harness that and not deviate from the core values of being a Democrat — that we fight for health care and housing and education, that we stay in that lane and there's streams on both sides. But I believe that the mass majority of New Yorkers, indeed Americans, are in that wide middle.

Can she win statewide? 

She could put together a plan. She could do whatever she likes. She could do whatever she likes.

What's that? 

I don't know. I presume she could. I don't know for sure.

It's a center state, right? 

All I know is I've got an election in two weeks. I'm focused on this, but also winning my congressionals. I wanna win.

But it sounds like you were impressed seeing AOC far from the city. You guys were in the Hudson Valley somewhere, I think. With Pat Ryan. 

Yeah, people know her. She has a connection. Yeah, she's very good.

She has talents. 

Oh, yeah, we have a lot of talent in our party, we really do.

I want to ask you about that. There's a lot of governors who are looking at running for president in 2028, a lot of your buddies, a lot of your texting buddies. Have you started hearing from them yet? Are they calling you? Are they texting you and saying, “Governor, just checking in on your campaign, can I help maybe with a contribution? Do you need something?” 

I'm out there helping other people, so people know –

You're in good shape. 

Well, I'm in good shape because I worked hard to be in good shape. This is not a foregone conclusion. It is still a tough state to run in.

Do you think a Republican could still win statewide here? 

Not in the era of MAGA.

Yeah, it's the Trump party, right? 

That's a huge liability. And Democrats, our policies are the ones where we're fighting for health care and Medicare, and we don't want tariffs. We don't want higher energy costs. It's just a lot of things where our party answers the needs of New Yorkers, and really Americans.

If you and I sat here in 2031, do you think the Democratic Party will still be a capitalist party? 

Yes.

That's not going to change. 

Yeah, and again, I do reject labels, although people give themselves labels, right? But we are a capitalist society. New York City is the epicenter of capitalism. And because of these businesses coming here, we're the No. 1 destination for college graduates now. We just surpassed San Francisco and the Silicon Valley for the most number of tech jobs. I wanna be the place where the talent comes to. And that is capitalism. People have to come here and be successful. You know why? Because they generate the revenue so I can support universal child care, education, building more housing, and they create jobs.

Capitalism is what lures immigrants still, and the city and the state depend on immigration. 

Yeah, and this crackdown on immigration, we need to have an immigration plan that makes sense. I worked on this as a staffer, an attorney for Daniel Patrick Moynihan back in the ’80s. The last really comprehensive immigration bill where we gave amnesty to the 4 or 5 million who were already here and had employer sanctions and tougher guardrails, tougher border control. It can happen again because our economy desperately needs the labor, the vitality, the diversity, and New York is an example of what immigrants do. Look at this community.

You mentioned Pat Moynihan, of course, the late, great senator from New York, and one of his staffers, somebody you knew well, Tim Russert, tells a great story. Tim grew up in Buffalo. His father, of course, was a garbage man, and he didn't go to an Ivy League school. I think he was nervous about finding his place on Senator Moynihan’s staff. And Senator Moynihan took Russert aside and said, “What they know,” meaning the Ivy League swells, “on my staff, you can learn from a book. What you know from growing up in South Buffalo, they will never know.” Because obviously you're a Western New Yorker, you're here in the city, it's been an adjustment –

My family’s from South Buffalo.

But your background obviously helps you in some ways. 

It does, and I reflect on it all the time. I was just at an event yesterday talking about what housing means to me. When your parents live in a trailer park in the shadow of the Bethlehem Steel plant, where your immigrant grandfather got his job after being a migrant farmworker because they wouldn't hire the Irish, and your dad works at the steel plant until he gets an education, and you grow up with a big Irish Catholic family, it's just embedded in you these strong values of what being a member of a union means, what having health care means, what having a job means. So I don't lose that.

Tim Russert was probably out of college when I was a high school intern. I was the only girl, I was the only high schooler, and I would take an hour-long bus ride all the way through all the city streets after school almost every day to volunteer at Democratic headquarters with Tim Russert. And all the political leadership of that time, many who became members of Congress or county executives — it was the hotbed of political activity for New York because the statewide chairman was our county chairman. And I'll never forget Tim helping write my first press release. And I did a crappy job. He's got his red pen scribbling it all over, but we became good friends. And I stayed in charge of them when he went to Moynihan’s office, and I was in law school. You know, he put in a good word when I was getting the job with Senator Moynihan years later. So he was just so special. We loved the fact that he always referenced the Buffalo Bills.

Kathy Hochul navigating Donald Trump in the White House, a young socialist mayor in New York City. And it's only getting started because in 2028, Senator Schumer and the possibility of AOC is gonna be a fascinating cycle, too. It's a pretty interesting time to be a New Yorker. 

It's a great time to be a New Yorker. I love being the governor. Never foresaw this from where I started, very humble family, but it is a gift.

And maybe running again in 2030, folks, you heard it here right now: Not done yet with Albany.

I'm not done.