New York Gov. Kathy Hochul Talks Trump, Mamdani And Budget Wins

ALBANY, New York — With the Empire State’s legislative session now complete, Gov. Kathy Hochul and POLITICO’s Albany Bureau Chief Nick Reisman sat down to talk about the recently completed state budget, her relationship with New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani and the challenges she has in dealing with President Donald Trump.

The Democratic governor is navigating a complex political moment as she runs for a second full term. Voters are frustrated with skyrocketing costs and increasingly turning to populist candidates on the left and right.

Hochul falls into a different category — embracing policy solutions meant to address affordability, but ones that may take a while for voters to feel.

“I'm not doctrinaire, I'm not so locked into a label that requires me to perform in a certain way or say certain things,” she said. “I'm just a regular New Yorker working hard on behalf of my fellow New Yorkers, and so I don't care what the labels are at all.”  

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

You started this budget looking at the affordability question, something that I think a lot of New Yorkers, a lot of Americans right now are deeply concerned about, but still it seems like a lot of this stuff is almost baked into the electorate. How do you go out there and convince voters and convince New Yorkers that a lot of these measures that you got in there, like the SEQRA reform, expanding no-cost childcare, the car insurance premium changes — that they'll start feeling these changes ultimately? 

People need to know that their elected officials are actually fighting for them. So that's job number one, to let them know we understand what they're going through. We know it's profound pain when they open up the envelopes with their bills or go online and see what they have to come up with every month, and it just seems to be so oppressive for people.

So, first of all, they need to know that they're leaders, and particularly someone like myself, who was raised in a very humble experience — we used to buy our clothes at used clothing stores, and my mom would buy frozen Twinkies and bread at the day old shop or the week old shops, we had stale bread all the time, and there were struggles in my early days as a mom as well — so I think first of all, they need to know we have empathy. Then what we do with that is we translate that into policies. What can I do, knowing what they're going through personally, but also having gone around the state and sat in diners and little cafes, whether it's Rochester or Long Island, I just go everywhere, and we assemble people, so I have a real good pulse of what people's pain points are, what their stresses are.

People this year are getting a $1,000 tax credit in the mail because of our child tax credit. So there's direct money there. We did the inflation rebate — direct money in your pockets. This year, even with no taxes on tips, I'm a waitress for five years, I actually, you know, know what that's like, to feel like your little paycheck is so tiny. And then you've got taxes on that, so I think it's that, plus, as you mentioned, what stresses people out is that utility bill. Here's some utility relief — a billion dollars to help New Yorkers know we hear them.

Part of it is the Trump administration, but people don't want to hear excuses right now. They want to know what you're doing, and the other part is on the auto insurance, that's going to be huge. That is going to make a big difference for people in something that they felt that there was no control over. So it's understanding the pain, addressing the pain, then letting them know you're out there, that you were able to deliver. We’re announcing this week that 20,000 parents will be able to have a two-year-old program in New York City. That wasn't going to happen unless I took that on, drove it through, got it done. In addition, what we're doing upstate is being aggressive. We're going to make sure that we have three-year-old and four-year-old programs, because the rest of state's behind New York City. We catch up with that, so you don't have to worry about child care. So that's going to be a big change for families as well.

There's so much discontent out there, though, over the last couple of years. Some of this might be a hangover from Covid, some of it might be social media feeding on itself. The affordability question seems a lot like the public safety question, which I know you faced and continue to face over the last couple of years, and a lot of it is telling folks that public safety has gotten better, crime has gone down, but at the same time, if they don't feel it, if they see $5 a gallon gasoline or $6 a gallon gasoline, they're going to be upset. Are you concerned that there's going to be a broad blame that's going to be cast? Not just on the Trump administration, on Republicans in power, but really anybody who is in elected office this year.

Constituents are smart. They know what the price of gas was in January before Donald Trump entered into a voluntary war of aggression against Iran. They should have calculated that there could be risks, and now that we're living with that. What has happened is the direct result of their policies, which were not well thought out, and so people know that I used to pay less for gas. What happened? Oh, I'm watching the news. Donald Trump's war in Iran is driving up the cost of gas, it's going to be $6, maybe $7.

So, no, the voters are smart, you know. If they're losing some coverage or federal programs that they had, they're not happy about it. But I don't feel the blame on those. I mean, I will own what we own. As I mentioned, this is the first year people are feeling the largest middle-class tax rate cut in seven years. These are real changes, and so they hear from me directly as their governor. I'm fighting for them. I go out, I'm everywhere, and there may be some that cast aspersions on everybody, but I know a lot of these were driven by Washington. I mean, paying $1,700 more a year for purchases, whether it's a new stroller, a backpack, a TV set — those are called tariffs. We didn't have that problem before. Inflation, Donald Trump promised to bring down prices on day one. They've gone up, so I think the voters know where that's — the origins of that.

You mentioned one of those federal policies, or at least alluded to it. It seemed like some of the health care coverage situation. I know there wasn't anything necessarily in the budget to make up some of that. I don't think New York necessarily has the resources to make up some of that, but is there anything that could have or should have been done this year to address at least part of that?  

We started working on this right after the big ugly bill was passed last July. We knew that there are people that were exposed. I had to get permission from the federal government, had to go down and talk about getting waivers, et cetera, so I could transfer people who had been on one program into another. We saved 1.3 million people from having to lose health care. Had we not been aggressive in trying to address this, it would be gone. And I also do believe that people should know where it started, why it happened. There are seven members of Congress who are Republicans who supported those plans. They should be raising their ire at those individuals, and people should know that elections do have consequences. And now this is what they voted for, maybe once they shouldn't do it again, and it was a mistake.

So then we also know that, what I think, as I've been told in the story of the Essential Plan, is this was an add-on modification that was only allowed by the Biden administration in the last couple of years, literally, so people had health care, probably with their jobs or elsewhere. Before the Biden administration said, “Hey, states, if you want to offer this, people from 200% poverty line to 250, you can do that, and we'll cover the cost.” So, sure, why not? We'll do that, but before that time, people had to manage with usually their employers, but they might have said this one's more generous, right? So, I think there's a fair number of people that are going to be able to go back to — we're reaching out to people, they've got notice back in October, November of what's happening, how to ready, how to get access to other health care plans, how to check your employer. We have had so many advocates and ambassadors to try and manage this, so people were not left hanging because of what the Trump administration did.

Another Trump administration issue has been the rather aggressive deportation situation. Back in January, just as the unrest in Minneapolis was really taking off, you proposed some guardrails on those policies. I'm just curious, over the years that you have been in office, going from the Erie County clerk who famously opposed the driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants. I know you've changed on that position, but when you were watching what was going on in Minneapolis, what was your reaction? Were you concerned about something like that happening in New York City? Were you concerned about just how the undocumented community was going to be affected by this? 

Of course. I didn't just stand up in January. We've been condemning this since Donald Trump took office and started these cruel policies, and this is not a new development waiting for two U.S. citizens to get killed. We've been fighting back on this — the mass deportations that were happening in our communities. I remember going to Little Haiti, which the year before had been so vibrant in Brooklyn, and then I go back again after the raid started, and it was a ghost town. I mean, so I've been involved in this before.

But Minneapolis was an escalation. It was really something else.

I know it truly was, but it wasn't something like all of a sudden we paid attention to it. We've been paying attention to it because we have so many immigrants here who are working hard, who've been here, some for decades, and the stories were already starting about a high school kid from Nassau County getting swept up, and a parent walking to pick up their kid after school, or people going into the courthouses, following the laws. I mean they're following them, they're like they're sitting ducks, they're following the laws, told to go in here on this date, and then they take them away, and so I have criticized this from the beginning. Now, yes, it was an escalation in that it was shocking what occurred. It also was the first time the majority of Americans also reacted with abhorrence to those circumstances, and that was important to happen, that was important to be changing people's attitudes about this as well. I didn't need mine changed, but it was helpful for the rest of the country of seeing what we knew was going on, and it's absolutely out of control.

I had hoped when I presented my plan for immigration in New York we would have done it in January. I would have been happy. I kept saying, “Why can't we get agreement on this? I mean, let's just go back to the basics here,” you know. We'll always cooperate in criminal situations. That's expected. I will do that. We're not a sanctuary state for criminals. But listen, why can't we do the protections for places of worship and schools and community centers and polling places and hospitals and daycare centers? Why can't we do that now? Why can't we do that now? What's the problem? Why can't we say there's a constitutional right to someone who's had their rights violated? Why can't we ban masks right now? And it got caught up with everybody else wanting to do what they want to do, and as a result, more people were affected during this time, and I think that's egregious.

So, that was frustrating, that there was pressure in the Legislature for their version, the New York For All versus your Local Cops, Local Crimes? 

I had already explained what I was going to support. It was very expansive, more than other states have done, and people just thought they would get to a different place with me, and they didn't, and I think we lost too much time on that. That should have happened in January.

On the other end of things, you've got the Trump administration, Tom Homan going out there saying they've passed all these bills that are going to make it harder for ICE to do their jobs and we're going to now surge into New York. Have you gotten any official communication or seen any evidence that there's been an ICE surge since then?

No, he promised a surge. Trump had promised a surge after Chicago and after Los Angeles last fall. I called and said, “You know, we don't need the National Guard, and we don't need, we don't want additional ICE agents.” And he stood down. He said at our meeting in February with governors when someone asked him what was the lesson of Minneapolis, literally, one of the governors asked him, what was the lesson of Minneapolis, and he said in that room of governors that we'll only, we will not go where we're not welcome, we're not wanted. He looked over at me and said, “I won't go to New York if Kathy doesn't want me to.” And I said, “Well, we're good with that, Mr. President.” So, what's happening now, though, in reaction to our bill? There's a lot of talk. I can't be intimidated into inaction. I can't have their threats stop me from doing what I know is right.

Do you think Homan was bluffing on that? That was coming just as the voting was about to happen. Do you think he was just trying a last ditch? 

I don't know what's in his mind. I really don't. When he just sat with me, he knows it went too far in Minneapolis. He went in as the cleanup.

Is that what he told you, that Minneapolis went too far?

They know that — they know it went too far. They know Minneapolis went too far, and that they would be more targeted, and I expect to hold him to that.

I know your administration, you've said this before, that this would be kind of a slap in the face to the NYPD if they were to go in there. Is there also a concern that it would create a dangerous situation? Like, Minneapolis is one thing, and with all due respect to Minneapolis, a lovely city, but it's not New York City. It is a much different thing to do something like that in the media capital of the world. Is that also kind of part of the concern? 

We do not want this to happen. We do not want this to happen. But threatening me and expecting me to stand down from a position that I believe in and is important for people will never work, so I hope they reconsider. I think if they also want to look at the political impact of what they have done, they have driven far more people away from the Republican Party in elections because of what they're doing with people who are their others' neighbors, whether it's the North Country, the raids up on dairy farms of major Republican supporters, raids on their farms, who I've talked to, have met with. There is an anger that is palpable in Republican parts of this state and this country, and I think they know it.

On the other side of things, Mayor Mamdani — you got a lot of wins for him in this budget, and in his budget, for that matter. Obviously, universal child care is a big thing for him, and for you, but you also, quite frankly, helped out the city government and the city budget significantly this year. Should the mayor expect that kind of help going forward?

My objective this year was that, as a new mayor, seeing that he is a new mayor, he inherited a financial shortfall that could hurt the bond rating of the city and result in a loss of confidence of investors as well as the business community, and I couldn't let that happen. That was my motivation this year. Now they have their own team in place. They control the budget. They need to look hard at spending. They need to identify programs that are not serving what they should, or that are out of control in scale, like I have done with programs like CDPAP. It's not easy. The status quo is always easier, as I've seen with everything I've taken on. Whether it's SEQRA reform, CDPAP reform, auto insurance — status quo is always easier, but the status quo is not working, and that's why I challenge it. And I encourage the mayor and his team, as they're putting together this budget, looking into the next year before we get back together again to look hard, because yes, we are there as a lift this year, but I've got a big state. We also support a lot of our cities too, and we gave very generous support to all of our major cities to help them get through some financial time, and again another series of new mayors who inherited bad problems, and I was there to help.

So, he and his team should expect a different dynamic next year on that?

Yeah, they manage their budget now. I mean, I gave them steady revenue support with the pied-à-terre tax that wasn't there before, and they also have some of the long-term recurring costs that were put on the city by my predecessor. We took those off, so there's baked in savings for them that were not there before. They should still continue to secure savings from the pension amortization, so they need to look at them like spending levels, and how they want to manage that.

With Trump and Mamdani, the president and the mayor — they both have these ardent fan bases — very, very passionate support. How is it to navigate this current political environment where you've got this populist right, a populist left, you're a moderate Democrat, perhaps a classical Democrat. You're certainly in a very different lane than those two, and yet you've got to navigate all of that terrain right now. 

And I’ve done it successfully. I have, because I'm not doctrinaire. I'm not so locked into a label that requires me to perform in a certain way or say certain things. I'm just a regular New Yorker working hard on behalf of my fellow New Yorkers, and so I don't care what the labels are at all. I never have. There'll be issues where I'm viewed as right smack in the middle or trend left, trend right, depending on the issue. So I think it's actually more liberating for me to not feel that there are people who are demanding and expecting me to behave a certain way because of a label, and it's actually been more beneficial for the state, and people respect that, more people are respecting that.

Was it disappointing that the mayor endorsed against Rep. Adriano Espaillat for the Darializa Avila Chevalier in that primary?

I'm not going to be commenting on other people's endorsements. I had to come out for Adriano.

You asked the mayor to endorse Rep. Espaillat? 

I asked him to stand down, to be neutral. I'd asked him to be neutral in that race. And so, yeah. That’s another — I've got to have him as a governing partner.

The mayor? 

Yes, as what we did yesterday, you know, we are both hosting the World Cup, we're hosting America 250, Sail 250, US Open, golf tournaments. We are — the eyes of the world are on us. Plus, we got that coinciding with the Knicks championship.

Right, I mean there's a lot going on. Are you worried about any sort of summertime craziness that tends to happen in New York City?

I have to make sure the city's successful. It is the academic engine of the state, it is the cultural, entertainment, business, you know, sports — well, I won't say sports. I'm from Buffalo — it is one of our sports capitals. But it’s critical that New York City survive and thrive. So my job is to do everything in my power as the governor who does have considerable power over the city, as all cities, not just New York City.

How do you address peoples’ loss of faith in institutions?

I know the climate has gotten more challenging, and people are disaffected and disappointed in institutions, but I can't surrender what brave patriots fought for 250 years ago. I cannot walk away from that legacy of continuing to fight, no matter how difficult it gets. Yes, they may be difficult, but throughout our history, we've had a lot of challenging times, you know. Civil war at the forefront of it. So I will always believe in the promise of this country and the state to be able to do better, and I want to drive that for the next number of years, and just let people know I know how to do it. I love what I do. I'm passionate about it, and I've got their back.

Are you concerned that the America 250 stuff is getting politicized at this point and that some people just may tune out entirely?

It may. I do hope that people will do something reflective, like watch the Ken Burns series on the American Revolution. You know, as a New Yorker, you'd be so proud to know the role that the people who came before us played, just ordinary citizens leaving their homes for years, not getting paid, separated from their families. They so believed in the cause that they just, they didn't look back. And we are the beneficiaries of that. So I feel that future generations will hopefully be proud of us standing up to this, what is happening in Washington now, and the parallels are very similar.

Are you going to be participating in the events this summer on the 250?

I’ll be in New York City on the Fourth of July, for sure. Yeah, looking to... am I on one of the tall ships or something? I think there's something from a tall ship. I want to embrace it, you know. And again, for all of our flaws and scars and warts, this is a great country. If people take some time to learn what happened up at Saratoga, Ticonderoga, or here in Albany, or the Battle of Brooklyn, and the fight for keeping New York State, New York City — I think they'll be really proud to be Americans again. And let's just start with that one common base that we all come from, this dynamic, this birth of a democracy, which was so far-fetched, and they achieved it, and it has helped us, like Ben Franklin said, you know, it's a republic if you can keep it.

Do you think the president has been fostering that kind of environment for 250? 

I am. I'm trying to create that spirit of optimism. Defeatism and cynicism would not have been pervasive back 250 years ago, we would not have this country.

I know you gotta run. Thank you so much for your time.