This Governor Wants Republicans To Forgive Their Enemies

SALT LAKE CITY — Utah Gov. Spencer Cox is not running for president. Or at least that's how he opens his new book, Off Ramp: How to Be a Peacemaker in an Age of Contempt.

Put aside, for a moment, how that went over with Cox's publisher. And whether he'd keep that pledge if he eventually has a more obvious political home than he does in today's MAGA-fied Republican Party.

Cox's book is worth reading for anyone who loves politics but hates what it has become. It's also for anyone who hates themselves every time they reach for their phone like it's a pack of Marlboro Lights.

The Utahn amasses a Wasatch Mountain-sized body of evidence, dutifully sourced, about why our democracy is turning rancid. Cox also offers some suggestions about how to improve the discourse, and it turns out you, the citizen, carry the burden. He even borrows the old Clintonism that "there's nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed by what's right with America" (consult your trademark attorney, Mayor Emanuel).

So if he's not testing material for a future White House bid, what's Cox doing with this book? Well, for starters, his term ends in 2028, and the 51-year-old would be an obvious prospect to join the next administration, whether it's led by a fellow Republican or one of his fellow governors who happens to be a Democrat.

But it's also the writing of someone still working through recovery from a Twitter addiction, someone who's done the reading and has something important to say about these times.

Yet how candid is he about the role President Donald Trump plays in our corroding politics? Not enough, by my lights, which is why I asked him about how much he spares Trump in a book that, in another section, emphasizes how vital elite signaling is to improving public dialogue.

Over chips, salsa and superb mole at the Red Iguana 2 in Salt Lake, we discussed his effort to forge a relationship with Trump, who Cox didn't vote for in the president's first two elections. The governor doesn't deny his political imperative much — he needs Trump's help for local projects like saving the Great Salt Lake.

We also talked about perhaps the hottest story in Utah politics (Sen. Mike Lee's current and more cringe Twitter addiction), what Trump told Cox about the prospects for pursuing immigration reform in the next two years and how many people have lost friendships over politics. Oh, and also my cynical interpretation of his vow of presidential celibacy.

You can watch the full video on YouTube or listen to it as a podcast.

The following conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

I'm glad you're here, and I'm glad that we're doing this because you got a new book out.

Here's my first question: How worried are you about the trajectory of this country, and are we, at the risk of hyperbole, drifting towards some kind of civil conflict in America?

Yeah, I'm worried. Deeply worried. That's why I wrote the book. I started the book three years ago because I was worried then. I don't think it's gotten better, for sure. A year ago we had a terrible tragedy here — the highest-profile assassination in 50 years in my state, in Happy Valley, right?

This isn't supposed to happen here. And so if this can happen here, it can happen anywhere. I've looked at political violence over the past decade. Members of Congress: a tenfold increase in threats of violence towards Congress. Not a 10 percent increase. A 10-times increase in threats of violence toward members of Congress.

We can't accomplish stuff if we hate each other. That's unsustainable. The experts tell me that we're on a path with this type of pernicious and effective polarization that we're seeing across the country. That there are other societies that have gone down this path, and it hasn't ended well for them. That being said, there have been worse times. Also, I hope people will come away with a really hopeful feeling about our country and that we can turn this around, and we can turn it around pretty quickly.

You mentioned the killing of Charlie Kirk here, and it bothered you profoundly for all the obvious reasons, but also because that's not supposed to happen in Utah.

Yeah.

Utah's supposed to be different.

Yeah. That's what I've always not just told myself, but that's what we tell each other. And we are different in so many positive ways, but it did happen here.

How did we get here? How'd this happen?

There's so much research that's been done here. I think there are a couple of factors. The first factor has been written about for a couple of decades now. Go back to “Bowling Alone” and-

The Robert Putnam book, right?

Dr. Putnam — “the loneliness factor.” We moved away from the healthy tribes in our country. We moved away from community. Alexis de Tocqueville, 1830, right? He comes here. He sees all of these incredible social organizations. A lot of them were religion-based, but there were more than that. We had these clubs and volunteer organizations, and they would build schools, and they would build hospitals, and they would solve problems. And there was this intense focus on community, which is where we've historically done those things, where we taught virtue, the virtues that matter.

So we move away from that, and then you throw social media into the mix — that hyper-polarizing, algorithm-driven, addiction-driven, contempt-driven world in which conflict entrepreneurs rise to the top, and all the incentives go to that. And now you have this very combustible place where we're rewarding the wrong things, and I think that leads to this hate and contempt that we talk about.

I don't want to bury the lede because I'm a journalist and you're a politician, and I'd be remiss if I didn't start with the introduction here because this first line —

The sentence I wrote for you?

This first line, it just really grabs me. It says, “I'm not running for president. No, really." What kind of a lede is that? You want me to keep reading this book?

Yes. In fact, I think people will read the book because I'm not running for president.

Is that why you did it? You have more credibility.

It also happens to be true, so that's maybe the more important part. But I am not running for president. I worry that this would be seen as this cheap chance to elevate myself, to get my name out there so that people would want me to run for president.

And it cheapens the message, because this is something I've been working on since 2014. That's when I wrote my first article on polarization for the University of Utah. I'd just become lieutenant governor, and this has been churning in there. I’ve been working on it for a long time.

Would I be a cynic if I were to say that that's what somebody would write if they didn't want to run for president, but maybe were open to a draft, and maybe they felt called one day, and they ran?

Well, you didn't keep reading, because then the next sentence is, "That's exactly what people say who want to run for president." So, thank you for proving my point.

No, it’s real. Look, it's deeper than that. My family needs me. This is hard stuff.

There's the story in the book. You encounter a woman-

Fall of '20. I think at a fundraiser, and said, "Isn't there something you can do?" Yeah. And you respond to that by brushing her off politely. But it sticks with you, and you decide to cut this ad with your Democratic opponent. Tell me about that. 

We're in Covid, the summer of George Floyd. It feels like we're at a breaking point. So I can't sleep that weekend after that question.

I call my opponent, Democrat Chris Peterson, great guy. We disagree on so many things. And I said, "Hey, Chris, there's something I know we agree on, and that's that we care about our state. That we can disagree without hating each other." We had had this, this moment: Our big televised debate was the lead-in to the first Biden/Trump debate, which a lot of people will remember as a complete wreck, right? This is the 2020 debate.

So I call Chris, and I said, "Hey, I have this crazy idea. What if we did an ad together in which I say, 'I'm Spencer Cox. I think you should vote for me.' You say, 'I'm Chris Peterson. I think you should vote for me.' We disagree on a lot of things, but we both agree we can disagree without hating each other, that we care about our state, that we'll accept the results of the election, whatever they are," all that stuff.

He agrees to do it. We're in the studio a week later. We film the ad. It's released, goes viral. Millions of hits. And that's when I became convinced that Americans are desperate for something different, for something better. There's just a market failure, and neither party's offering it.

What can Spencer Cox do to put this into action in the future? There's going to be a post-Trump era. People are going to look to folks like you to have something to say. What role do you wanna play in your party and the country?

I hope I'm trying to play that role now. I'm the worst at this stuff. I have to remind myself every day, the incentives are all lined up against this type of work — and yet, I'm trying. So, what can I do? Well, I can write a book that hopefully people will pay some attention to. I started a nonprofit that is doing this work. That ad in particular got sent in, unbeknownst to me, to the Stanford Polarization Lab. They found out that it actually does something. It has a depolarizing effect on people. We convinced 24 governors to film similar ads, created this nonprofit. They're still out. They're releasing ads this week with members of Congress who are doing this work.

We also had those ads tested and found something else out. In fact, we found out that people who watch these ads are more likely to support the candidates who film them. So, even if you don't want to do this work for the good of our country, if you have a purely Machiavellian view of the country, then do this because it will help you get elected.

And treat others with dignity and respect, and you can do that. You don't have to compromise on your values, but just treat people with respect.

Do you think JD Vance is going to embrace these kind of ideas in his '28 campaign?

I have no idea. We haven't had that conversation.

You don’t seem very optimistic.

Again, I don't know.

But you're a realist though, gov.

I'm a realist, but I'm also passionately hopeful about the future and that people can change. I interviewed JD Vance on stage when I was lieutenant governor at Weber State University about his book when it came out. Incredible book.

And he’s changed since then.

People respond and can change in different ways. I have a great relationship with the vice president, and [he’s] somebody I could work with.

What do you make of his evolution since then, knowing him a little bit?

It's been a fascinating journey. When I interviewed him on stage, I never saw him becoming vice president of the United States. I didn't know he had any ambitions for that kind of thing. He's been very successful. We've worked on issues together.

This is the state of play right now. This is how you get elected today.

What's that?

By not doing what I'm advocating for. Divisiveness works, right? It certainly does. I think we can change that, I really do.

Do you think he genuinely believes in what he's, what he's saying now?

Yeah. I think he believes what he says. I think he's passionate about it. I think he cares deeply about our country. That's the thing, I'm not out here trying to tell everybody else how they have to do their politics. I'm just hopeful that people will look for their better angels.

Let's stick to the near future for a moment. Let me ask you about the midterms. Speaking of how rough this thing could get, how concerned are you about the midterms and the aftermath of the midterms? In terms of how they're contested and what the president may or may not do?

I mean, I don't know a Republican in the country [who’s] not concerned about the midterms.

I'm not talking about the actual outcome. I'm talking about the contesting of the midterms and the aftermath.

I think people are desperate for normal, and I'm not sure either party's offering a ton of that right now. That concerns me.

I don't get too fired up about the midterms. We'll see what happens. We'll see what turnout is like. I'm just worried about the state of politics constantly in our country today.

I ask you because, if the president doesn't recognize some of these elections or demands recounts or if this thing becomes a mess in the aftermath, court fights are protracted — we lived through this in 2020, obviously — that sets the table for a very contentious Congress the following January.

I don't know. Every Congress is contentious when you have a four-vote majority. I'm not that worried about those pieces. We'll get through it. The judiciary's strong. We've made it through those things before. There’s always contests.

But this is shaping up to be a politically difficult election for your party. Why is that, do you think?

I think it's the same reason that every party struggles in the midterms after they get a majority. We overreach. You get a small win, and you think that means you get to do everything you’ve ever wanted to do, all your wildest dreams. Which is not what... There was no mandate, right? The voters just didn't like the last party, so they gave us a chance.

You mean Biden and Kamala Harris? 

Yeah.

They were voting against Biden and Harris, not for Trump.

Well, no, I mean, I think they were voting for Trump, too. But it's not just the president; it's Congress; it’s overreaching on things always. The Democrats do this, we do this, and then there's a big swing in the midterms, and that's what happens.

The final two years of President Trump, he's obviously going to want to etch a legacy for himself. He may want to acquire more land; obviously Greenland's been something he's talked about. Tell me your view of the president's final two years, and what would you encourage him to use those final two years to do?

We've talked about this, he and I. We have a great relationship. It's a relationship I've worked really hard on. It's no secret that I wasn't supportive [of him] for eight years — it's been a really important learning experience for me, to have that relationship. I would tell him the same thing I told him when I was back in the Oval Office, and that is to help me save the Great Salt Lake.

There are issues that are really important to people in different parts of the country. Of course, the cost of everything is a big deal. That's what he ran on. That's where we need to focus on. Those are things that I think can be real legacies.

Is there an immigration opportunity?

Yeah, there is. We’ll see what happens. Every governor I've talked to — and I've talked to almost every governor in the country, Republican and Democrat — we've had these meetings, and people are always shocked when the Democrats I talk to all say, "Can't believe Trump secured the border. It's incredible. Didn't think it could happen."

Republicans weren't sure it could happen. And he did the impossible. For the 40 years since Reagan, every president has tried to do some sort of immigration reform, and they have all failed. They got close a couple of times. [George W. Bush] got close. Obama got really close.

One vote one way, and things fall apart. He's probably the only president that could pull it off, and I've heard that from Republicans and Democrats.

So you think that Trump could be Nixon goes to China. You could leverage him by saying, "All these presidents tried, sir. They couldn't get it done. Only you can get it done."

I mean, that just happens to be true.

But it's also a good pitch for him too, right? It plays to his vanity.

[Republicans] support fixing illegal immigration. The details matter.

Have you talked to the president about it?

We’ve had conversations, yeah.

Did he seem open to it?

I don't know how open he is to it. But I know he's deeply concerned about what happened in our country. The Biden administration let millions of people in, destroyed the infrastructure in red states and blue states, including the state of Utah, overwhelmed the resources we have. I don't care how much you care about taking care of the immigrant population — and we do here in Utah, better than anywhere else — and [we’re] completely overwhelmed.

Have you talked to Susie Wiles about it all?

A little bit.

And she's open to it?

They're looking, they're gathering information, they're always asking questions, trying to figure out where things are. The Minnesota stuff was rough. You saw some changes there, including personnel changes.

There's a right way and a wrong way to do this. I always point out that Obama deported more than any president in history, right? I point that out in the book. And you can do that without shooting people on the street.

It's like one of our two parties increasingly is uneasy with capitalism; the other, a lot of them are uneasy with immigration. It's hard to sustain America if people aren't comfortable with capitalism and immigration, because I've got news for you, the two complement each other.

But you have to do immigration right. There's a reason people are so upset about immigration. It's because we've done it wrong for far too long, and we have taken Americans' jobs. And that's not good. That’s deeply unhealthy.

Not everywhere; there are some places where we need some immigration, because we can't get Americans to do these jobs. But that has to be thoughtful. There has to be a plan, and nobody has a plan. Nobody is doing anything about this, and I think governors can help.

How can people be good Americans, good citizens, dutiful, follow the news, but at the same time, not get so immersed in this stuff that it becomes their identity and who they are? Where's that balance?

While we've just spent a half hour talking about Trump and the national stuff, ultimately, this book is about those relationships. Too many Americans have lost a close friend or a member of their family to politics, where they don't talk anymore. They disowned each other, and that is not healthy. It's bad for our souls.

It sounds like a fatal disease.

It is a fatal disease.

Lost a friend to politics. It's not cancer or heart disease, man.

But it might as well be. It feels that way when it's happened to you. Research shows that you can break that cycle, you really can, but it has to be a conscious choice, and you have to work at it. It means deleting Twitter off your phone, as I did.

How'd that go?

It went great. It means turning off Fox News.

Are you still off?

Yeah. I have it on my computer. I log on and check things. But it's not on my phone, it's not with me constantly. I can't check it right now. We're having a meal together, I'm present. That was not always happening at my home.

So it's laptop only now?

Yeah. And it's made life so much better. I can write again. I can write long-form again. I felt that focus coming back. My relationships have improved significantly. I'm not wired constantly. I'm not angry constantly because it's in front of me 24/7.

I am curious, though, for where you're going to land. Obviously you’ve got to focus on being governor, but it does seem like you want to have a voice in the conversation going forward. Could that be in a cabinet, maybe? Could it be running a big organization? What interests you?

Being governor is incredible. Solving problems is really important to me. I'm not interested in the Senate at all.

You're not going to challenge Mike Lee?

No, no.

By the way, what's happened to Mike Lee? What's going on there?

Mike's a great guy, and a dear friend.

He needs one of those apps that you're talking about, to get off social media.

He spends a lot of time on X. That’s a choice he's made. I'm very grateful that I was able to get off.

Does it concern you?

Anybody that spends too much time on these platforms, there should be an intervention.

I can tell it concerns you.

I worry about it. I worry about it with my kids. I worry about it with me. I worry about it with members of Congress. I worry about it with my friends.

Have you talked to him about it?

I have not, no.

Maybe you should.

A lot of people talk to him about it. And look, there are good things that come from social media, and he's found his voice in a way that's important to him. I'm not here to shame anybody.

You're saying you don't want to run for Senate. 

No interest in any of that. Not going to happen. I'm an executive. I want to continue to work in important places. I have to retire at some point, so it'd be nice to make some money. I took a huge pay cut to take these jobs, and that's important, too, for my family.

There's one part of the book where I read it, and I said, "Does he really believe that?" And it's the part where you say the sentence: "Both Trump and Biden were deeply polarizing figures." Governor, you know that Trump is a uniquely aberrant figure in modern American politics. You don't believe that they're both polarizing and put them on the same plane? Isn't that false equivalence?

I do believe they're both polarizing. One might be better at it than the other, for sure. Look, I'm not here to tell anybody that they should endorse or support Donald Trump. That's not what I'm here to do. That was not the purpose of the book.

You don't put Biden and Trump on the same plane, though?

No. Again, [he is] a singular candidate who figured things out before anyone else. I didn't think he had a chance of winning in 2016. Neither did you. I don't know if he did in 2016, and yet he did. I did believe he was going to win in '24, and he did by a larger margin than I think most people realized. But here's my point. If we just immediately write off half the country for the contempt that we have for each other, then we'll never solve the biggest problems.

But the burden has to be on Republicans more than most to be honest about the president and the way he conducts himself, especially given that in this book you write something that I find very compelling, which is that the signals of elites matter.

Sure, yeah.

That elite signaling matters because people take their cues from how they see elites respond. And when the president talks about women or immigrants or even our allies overseas or even the deceased, like Rob Reiner, in the fashion he does, governor, that sends a message to people about what is or is not appropriate or how to speak these days.

So that's why it matters, because of your own case here about elite signaling — the signals he sends.

I'm not here to say it doesn't matter. It absolutely matters, and it's why he and I have had these conversations. There was this moment, at the Charlie Kirk service, right? Erika and I talk about this too. Erika gets up and forgives the assassin, right? I mean, one of the most powerful moments I've ever experienced.

And the president, to his credit, he is himself all the time. He gets up and says, "You know, Charlie said to forgive my enemies, but I can't do that.”

Is that a positive signal, you think? 

No. I believe in forgiving our enemies. I think it's one of the most important things we can do.

I believe that we have an admonition from on high to do this. And so I thought it was illuminating, and I appreciated his honesty in being able to say that. If he were here right now, we would have this conversation, and he would tell you, "Cox is wrong." I get that I'm not going to change that, and yes, I believe that elites matter. But I'm just here to tell you, man — if we think that a governor or a president is going to fix this country, we're crazy. It's on me, it's on you, it's on every one of us to fix the relationship.

Let's talk about solutions. What's the off-ramp?

Well, there's several. The easy one that we've already talked about is to get off your screens, right? Get off social media.

Adult- mandated, you're saying, for adults?

For adults, yeah. Another one: Get back to the foundations.

We're celebrating 250 years of this great country. The virtues that were important to self-governance — one of those is that we treat our fellow Americans with dignity and respect, that we're in this together, that we debate our differences. I think debate's a really important one. I am not asking anybody to compromise on their principles. I want vigorous debate. And there's a right and a wrong way to do that. What’s very interesting, people who learned how to debate in college or high school are much less polarized than the rest of the country. Because what you learn is the other side isn't evil or crazy or insane. They have a different viewpoint. They may believe strongly in it.

Then we have to break bread together. One of the biggest takeaways from research is to spend time with each other, with other people who are different than you. It's hard to hate up close.

One of my favorites, the last one — Utah is number one in the country in this — and that is serving. Volunteerism.

And forgive bravely. What does that mean, forgive bravely?

Forgive bravely, well, that's the Erika Kirk story. We're going to get offended. Bad things are going to happen to us, and especially if it's someone we love, we've got to be able to forgive. It's one of those commandments: Love your enemies. The hardest of all the commandments that Jesus gave, I think, is to love our enemies, and it wasn't just that. He didn't just say, "Love your enemies." He said, "Do good to those that hate you and despitefully use you." Politics says the exact opposite of that.

In this book, you talk about something I know you feel strongly about, and that is the drift away from this idea that America's a creedal nation. And I want to talk to you about your party and about the course for your party, because the temptations of what George W. Bush called the -isms — isolationism, nativism. The AfD in Germany, UKIP in the UK, National Front in France; why wouldn't it cross the Atlantic here, and how concerned are you about that drift here away from the idea that America's a creedal nation?

I'm less concerned, honestly, than I was even six months ago.

Why?

Because I've been having conversations all across the country with people, and listening less to the extremes online. One of the reasons I believe this is because I got off of X and talked to real people, and real people don't buy that stuff. People care about their fellow Americans. They want this to be a place of liberty and justice for all, not just for the people who worship in their same pew or look exactly like them or sound exactly like them. They want those freedoms for everybody, and that's why I believe in this place.

You will not find anybody more hopeful than me when it comes to our ability to fix what's wrong.