How To Legalize Medical Psychedelics In Your Country — Tania De Jong On Australia’s Breakthrough

My guest today is Tania de Jong, co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia. Tania and her husband, Peter, helped lead the push that, in 2023, made Australia the first country in the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for psychiatric conditions. I wanted to understand how the hell they helped make that happen and what the rest of the world can learn from it.

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[00:00:00] Coming Up.
[00:00:38] The article that changed Tania’s life.
[00:02:34] A first psychedelic experience—and the year it took to integrate it.
[00:08:26] Rick Doblin’s encouragement and the birth of Mind Medicine Australia.
[00:11:23] Turning regulatory rejection into a stronger application.
[00:14:42] Building a grassroots movement and training clinicians.
[00:17:25] Cold emails, scientific allies, and singing your way into the room.
[00:25:34] A week with Ram Dass: silence, singing, and an extraordinary LSD story.
[00:30:48] Bringing David Nutt—and a family’s devastating story—to the regulators.
[00:35:49] Dancing in the kitchen: Australia’s rescheduling breakthrough.
[00:36:45] From changing the rules to treating patients.
[00:41:21] Why Tim thinks MDMA is still underestimated.
[00:43:31] Integration beyond the session: therapy, nutrition, and exercise.
[00:45:38] Scaling access and collecting real-world evidence.
[00:51:14] Getting insurers, government agencies, and philanthropists on board.
[00:53:47] Syrian rue, psilocybin, and learning to let go of control.
[01:02:09] Dosing, expectations, and the pressure to take more.
[01:04:11] The promise of group therapy and shared integration.
[01:06:36] Hiring mistakes, personal attacks, and the resilience advocacy requires.
[01:16:03] Turning a window of change into lasting habits.
[01:18:23] Getting through to regulators and pushing for end-of-life access.
[01:20:59] The bureaucratic barriers that remain.
[01:24:14] What treatment costs—and why therapist time drives the bill.
[01:27:43] Could shorter-acting compounds make treatment more affordable?
[01:31:27] Ketamine, kratom, and the limits of “all natural.”
[01:36:00] The unexpected payoff from Tim’s ketamine experiment.
[01:40:36] What might come next for psychedelic access worldwide?
[01:41:54] Persistence versus pushiness—and knowing when to try another door.
[01:47:13] Supporting patients and training the next wave of clinicians.
[01:50:34] “Be curious”: exploring your inner world and walking each other home.
[01:54:20] The ripple effects of sharing your curiosity—and simply asking for help.

Tim Ferriss is one of Fast Company’s “Most Innovative Business People” and an early-stage tech investor/advisor in Uber, Facebook, Twitter, Shopify, Duolingo, Alibaba, and 50+ other companies. He is also the author of five #1 New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers: The 4-Hour Workweek, The 4-Hour Body, The 4-Hour Chef, Tools of Titans and Tribe of Mentors. The Observer and other media have named him “the Oprah of audio” due to the influence of his podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, which has exceeded one billion downloads and been selected for “Best of Apple Podcasts” three years running.

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